This Presbyterian appreciates our Baptist brothers and the catholicity that is evident in your writings. While we must be committed to biblical truth as we understand it, there is great good in honoring our fathers and being truly content to labor where the Lord has placed us. Blessings!
There seems to be an mis -step between a justifiable reason for leaving the SBC and becoming an Anglican. The reasons Matthew Barrett gives just don’t add up. Why not at least remain a non conformist?
As someone who made my journey to swimming the Thames by way of several denominations, SBC included, I appreciate this. Yes, I find something unifying, apostolic, and catholic that I didn't quite find for myself in the SBC, but I still have a profound respect for many of the people, theologians, and history from which the SBC stands. I know how my time with different denominations has influenced my devotions and thoughts, and I pray that God continues to enrich your PB inclined faith with our BCP style practices.
I would suggest that Yorkminster Psrk Baptist Church in Toronto would be the closest blend of liturgical Baptist I have seen. I have long called them “high Baptist”. As you know my brother is the Pastor and has served there for 30 years. He too is Wycliffe graduate with his M Div (1986) and served for 9 years as a Trustee of Wycliffe College until 2022.
I have long wondered how many of the Anglican liturgical elements I love could be incorporated into a Baptist service, if the altar was stripped, so to speak. I also strongly considered suggesting it as an evening service to avoid pitting it against what congregants might think of as "the Baptist way". Your having been doing so successfully spurs me on to bite the bullet. You also provide me with a venerable example to which to point for the oftentimes skeptically pragmatic Baptist pastor and help me make a credible case that I am not a Papist in disguise, a witch hunt unfortunately all too common among our kind.
--
For any Baptists looking for an accessible introduction to the BCP as a personal devotional tool, The Daily Office Podcast gives you morning and evening prayer in a convenient, portable, plug-and-play format:
I am curious if your service has seen more children attend "big boy church" with their parents--I have found the variety, consistency, and length of liturgical elements and briefer homily to be easier for children to engage with than typical forty-five minute sermons? I also wonder if the Lord's Supper being the focal point at the end of every BCP service has raised any eyebrows or hackles in your church? Personally, I miss that aspect of Anglicanism the most, but I have found Baptists to be very sensitive about weekly communion.
Thanks for this. We have not seen many children at our evening service. We have not had the L.S. at our eve service. I want to see how the service is received and then next year, DV, add the L.S. if the elders agree.
I’m happy to pastor at a Baptist church with a history of BCP style worship, into which I’ve leaned further. It always gives me pause though when I think of the early Baptists and their refusal to use such. I’m guessing there is a world of difference between getting to use, and being forced to use a prayer book. Could you point me toward any resources particularly good on this issue?
The Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 was made up of a one-time group of men never to tread the Earth again in this age, who were THE Apostles---the men entrusted by Jesus in the Upper Room (John 13-16) with all of Christ's teachings; including what they had forgotten by then, which Christ via the Holy Spirit would cause them to remember; and that which they could not bear at the time, but which Christ via the Holy Spirit would teach them in the future. This refers clearly to the future of THEIR lives and life-spans, not their supposed successors.
The Apostles, as the first generation of New Testament believers and personal witnesses of Christ, bore a special authority in the establishment of the faith unlike any other men in any other generation. As the first workers in the Great Commission mandate, they taught ALL Christ's teachings to the second generation of believers, who were to commit THOSE teachings to the next generation of FAITHFUL men, and so forth. Teach what?..."the faith ONCE delivered unto the saints", NOT an ongoing collaborative work of episcopal addenda and errata and developments and modifications, whether nuanced or thundered. Also NOT included in "the faith once delivered", were such anathemas as Gospel revisions and modifications, as well as episcopal self-granting promotions, arrogations of power, multiplication of offices, unscriptural traditions, multiple levels of intercessors, and a spirit of Diotrephes and the Nicolaitans.
In short, the entire world of so-called Christendom can---as it has since the first century in some cases---make their own claims about what is the way of salvation, but it doesn't make it so. They can pretend to possess a structured authority nowhere seen in context of the pages of the New Testament, but it doesn't make it Scriptural. And they can seduce multitudes away from the simplicity of the Gospel and the humility and majesty of Jesus Messiah, the Son of God and YHWH God the Son; they're good at it, having been about their father's business for just under 2,000 years in this era. Yes, they can make their claims, they can vote on it in secret councils or in the town square and open fields for all to see. But they will never outvote the Lord, they will never raise anything but a rebellion, they will never be possessed of right glorying (orthodoxy), or provide worship that the Father wants or delights in, and certainly not because what they do is an ancient opinion or invention. Lies were told in the Garden of Eden: antiquity does not equal verity.
"Let God be true but every man a liar," (Rom. 3:4); "Thy word is truth," (John 17:17); and "Thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name," (Ps. 138:2); let these certainties sink in. Let ALL the counsel of God prevail (Acts 20:27), rightly divided (II Tim. 2:15), and full of the doctrine of Christ (II John: 9) which teaches both His person and His works---the Gospel in Person. Neither Jesus nor His Apostles were imperious nor usurpative, magisterial nor domineering, liturgical nor ceremonious; and the King of the Universe neither needs nor requires counsel nor comment nor adding nor editing from His creation about the clarity, quality, or potency of His works and words.
The simplicity of the Gospel and the simplicity of the worship, fellowship, and discipleship of the first-century congregations of immersed believers IS THE ecclesiastical standard established and expected for the church age, as seen in the New Testament. The insurmountable and unimprovable authority of Christ and His Apostles still speaks in undiminished power through the whispers and commands of His perfect Word. Christ's New Covenant with His people is complete in its text, plain in its meaning, sufficient in its scope, and everlasting in its endurance. A narcissist dreams of customization of the Word to fit self, a haughty spirit demands it AND the conformity of everyone else TO it, and apostates follow after such perversions.
The world and professing believers can all vote down the clear teachings of God's Word, favoring instead their own wisdom and its devices; but they will never prevail. New Testament doctrine, including ecclesiology, has never been ultimately subject to the whims and will of man, no matter what men may say or do. "The faith once delivered" is specific, simple, and everlasting. THIS is the heritage of the saints.
This Presbyterian appreciates our Baptist brothers and the catholicity that is evident in your writings. While we must be committed to biblical truth as we understand it, there is great good in honoring our fathers and being truly content to labor where the Lord has placed us. Blessings!
Amen!!
There seems to be an mis -step between a justifiable reason for leaving the SBC and becoming an Anglican. The reasons Matthew Barrett gives just don’t add up. Why not at least remain a non conformist?
Totally agree!
As someone who made my journey to swimming the Thames by way of several denominations, SBC included, I appreciate this. Yes, I find something unifying, apostolic, and catholic that I didn't quite find for myself in the SBC, but I still have a profound respect for many of the people, theologians, and history from which the SBC stands. I know how my time with different denominations has influenced my devotions and thoughts, and I pray that God continues to enrich your PB inclined faith with our BCP style practices.
I would suggest that Yorkminster Psrk Baptist Church in Toronto would be the closest blend of liturgical Baptist I have seen. I have long called them “high Baptist”. As you know my brother is the Pastor and has served there for 30 years. He too is Wycliffe graduate with his M Div (1986) and served for 9 years as a Trustee of Wycliffe College until 2022.
I’m thankful for your witness and commitment to scholarship and fidelity Dr Haykin!
I like point #2 as well.
Well said Dr. Haykin.
I have long wondered how many of the Anglican liturgical elements I love could be incorporated into a Baptist service, if the altar was stripped, so to speak. I also strongly considered suggesting it as an evening service to avoid pitting it against what congregants might think of as "the Baptist way". Your having been doing so successfully spurs me on to bite the bullet. You also provide me with a venerable example to which to point for the oftentimes skeptically pragmatic Baptist pastor and help me make a credible case that I am not a Papist in disguise, a witch hunt unfortunately all too common among our kind.
--
For any Baptists looking for an accessible introduction to the BCP as a personal devotional tool, The Daily Office Podcast gives you morning and evening prayer in a convenient, portable, plug-and-play format:
https://open.spotify.com/show/7ABjzy7Tumx5tczT8LBqX5?si=b8fd2c89a37b4d8d
--
I am curious if your service has seen more children attend "big boy church" with their parents--I have found the variety, consistency, and length of liturgical elements and briefer homily to be easier for children to engage with than typical forty-five minute sermons? I also wonder if the Lord's Supper being the focal point at the end of every BCP service has raised any eyebrows or hackles in your church? Personally, I miss that aspect of Anglicanism the most, but I have found Baptists to be very sensitive about weekly communion.
Thanks for this. We have not seen many children at our evening service. We have not had the L.S. at our eve service. I want to see how the service is received and then next year, DV, add the L.S. if the elders agree.
I’m happy to pastor at a Baptist church with a history of BCP style worship, into which I’ve leaned further. It always gives me pause though when I think of the early Baptists and their refusal to use such. I’m guessing there is a world of difference between getting to use, and being forced to use a prayer book. Could you point me toward any resources particularly good on this issue?
The Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 was made up of a one-time group of men never to tread the Earth again in this age, who were THE Apostles---the men entrusted by Jesus in the Upper Room (John 13-16) with all of Christ's teachings; including what they had forgotten by then, which Christ via the Holy Spirit would cause them to remember; and that which they could not bear at the time, but which Christ via the Holy Spirit would teach them in the future. This refers clearly to the future of THEIR lives and life-spans, not their supposed successors.
The Apostles, as the first generation of New Testament believers and personal witnesses of Christ, bore a special authority in the establishment of the faith unlike any other men in any other generation. As the first workers in the Great Commission mandate, they taught ALL Christ's teachings to the second generation of believers, who were to commit THOSE teachings to the next generation of FAITHFUL men, and so forth. Teach what?..."the faith ONCE delivered unto the saints", NOT an ongoing collaborative work of episcopal addenda and errata and developments and modifications, whether nuanced or thundered. Also NOT included in "the faith once delivered", were such anathemas as Gospel revisions and modifications, as well as episcopal self-granting promotions, arrogations of power, multiplication of offices, unscriptural traditions, multiple levels of intercessors, and a spirit of Diotrephes and the Nicolaitans.
In short, the entire world of so-called Christendom can---as it has since the first century in some cases---make their own claims about what is the way of salvation, but it doesn't make it so. They can pretend to possess a structured authority nowhere seen in context of the pages of the New Testament, but it doesn't make it Scriptural. And they can seduce multitudes away from the simplicity of the Gospel and the humility and majesty of Jesus Messiah, the Son of God and YHWH God the Son; they're good at it, having been about their father's business for just under 2,000 years in this era. Yes, they can make their claims, they can vote on it in secret councils or in the town square and open fields for all to see. But they will never outvote the Lord, they will never raise anything but a rebellion, they will never be possessed of right glorying (orthodoxy), or provide worship that the Father wants or delights in, and certainly not because what they do is an ancient opinion or invention. Lies were told in the Garden of Eden: antiquity does not equal verity.
"Let God be true but every man a liar," (Rom. 3:4); "Thy word is truth," (John 17:17); and "Thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name," (Ps. 138:2); let these certainties sink in. Let ALL the counsel of God prevail (Acts 20:27), rightly divided (II Tim. 2:15), and full of the doctrine of Christ (II John: 9) which teaches both His person and His works---the Gospel in Person. Neither Jesus nor His Apostles were imperious nor usurpative, magisterial nor domineering, liturgical nor ceremonious; and the King of the Universe neither needs nor requires counsel nor comment nor adding nor editing from His creation about the clarity, quality, or potency of His works and words.
The simplicity of the Gospel and the simplicity of the worship, fellowship, and discipleship of the first-century congregations of immersed believers IS THE ecclesiastical standard established and expected for the church age, as seen in the New Testament. The insurmountable and unimprovable authority of Christ and His Apostles still speaks in undiminished power through the whispers and commands of His perfect Word. Christ's New Covenant with His people is complete in its text, plain in its meaning, sufficient in its scope, and everlasting in its endurance. A narcissist dreams of customization of the Word to fit self, a haughty spirit demands it AND the conformity of everyone else TO it, and apostates follow after such perversions.
The world and professing believers can all vote down the clear teachings of God's Word, favoring instead their own wisdom and its devices; but they will never prevail. New Testament doctrine, including ecclesiology, has never been ultimately subject to the whims and will of man, no matter what men may say or do. "The faith once delivered" is specific, simple, and everlasting. THIS is the heritage of the saints.